Comments on: Joy and Trumpets and Religion

By: Karen

Karen — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 13:52:09 +0000

LOL! Interesting points you bring up… I don’t think there’s a profound correlation between religion and emotional range. I know some pretty emotionally unstable atheists as well as some pretty apathetic, emotionally catatonic ones, and the same goes for religious types. I know some fiery good/evil, God-fearing Christians and some pretty cynical, quietly judgmental ones, too.

By: Joe

Joe — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 13:05:15 +0000

Nathan, please don’t think you irked me in any way. I love discussions like this – I think many times in a position like mine (pastor) many people take what I have to say as the final word.
First, what I did not say before is that I commend you for thinking about this- most people don’t think about these sort of things and for us to grow or deepen our beliefs we are to think WHY we believe what we believe.
It still seems to me(and I might be wrong in this) that you think that emotionalism in church is a bad thing- or that the reason that people come to church is because of the spiritual rush that they get. My friend, many people (including myself) see that as the Holy Spirit – the powerful spirit that comes into our lives. How can that be bad?
While I don’t believe that organized religion is necessary for salvation – I think that if you never go to church again your salvation is not in in trouble. I just would be concerned that if you are not a part of a community of believers your skew of religion, faith or view of the Bible might lead you dangerous places. It is the community of faith that comes together to support one another. I agree that the setup of religious institutions in general is lacking in reaching out to the modern Christian. Many times churches are still set up to serve the community of the 15th or 16th century. I many times ask the question what can the church offer someone that no one else can offer. First is the love, grace and forgiveness of God and if we have trouble to come up with another thing then the church in my opinion is in trouble.

Joes last blog post..Week 3 Picks

By: Nathan Pralle

Nathan Pralle — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 04:43:57 +0000

JOE: I was wondering if you’d comment, and was curious to see what you’d say. For the record, I certainly did not write it to irk you in particular, nor anyone…rather, this was a musing of mine the other night while I was singing with the barbershop chorus and they were talking about fire in your emotion. I started to muse that there’s not been anything quite like many of the experiences I had when I was a full-blown churchgoer. And, being the eternal philosopher, I had to work it through in my mind and, as it were, on my blog.

I DO NOT think that there is a plot by MOST religions to create a false sense of emotional response. I *do*, however, think that religious experiences, in and of themselves, generate an emotional surge. I’ve read many articles on this and most point to an indication that humans are somehow “wired” for experiencing religion or things like it. I do think that over the years, people have shaped religious services and traditions to help enhance that feeling of joy, belonging, and so forth. While I don’t think it’s purposeful, I think that it tends to result in such experiences.

I am lumping all religions into one group for purposes of this particular discussion because this is one area where all of them have a common component. We see these emotional reactions in Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Mormonism, and all sorts of other religions. For this reason, I don’t see this as, “dangerous”. Certainly, different denominations within a particular religion play up the emotional response of its members to a greater or lesser extent; however, they all have it in some form or another. I wasn’t, for instance, picking on Southern Baptists who, by all rights, have a lot of emotion going on vs. LCMS Lutherans, for instance. But even as a staunch LCMS Lutheran for YEARS, I had extreme emotional experiences. It’s all relative, really.

I have been to many different denominations, but I cannot say that I have been to many different religious centres. LCMS, ELCA, ELS, WELS, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc. etc. I would never say that I am overly knowledgeable about the entire field; certainly not. At the same time, my observations about the way modern religions work and how they help (or do not help) their members these days, I feel, are accurate. I could easily go on in a long blog posting about my current evaluation of modern religion if you like, but suffice it to say that I don’t think organized religion as it stands now is extensible enough to accomodate modern human needs. That’s not to say that *God* or *belief* is inadequate; that has nothing to do with it. But the actual *practice* of religion; that’s the key. And I think it falls short. It certainly has in my book — I feel that I have outgrown it and my beliefs have progressed beyond. I don’t know if that’s a good explanation or not, but as I said…I can wax on if there’s interest.

By: Joe

Joe — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:40:20 +0000

It seems to me that you think the religious communities have some sort of plot to tap into an area of our psyche in order to create a “religious experience.” After four years of divinity school (in the Lutheran Church) we never were taught to try and trick people into feeling the Holy Spirit in their lives. We were taught to worship God in an authentic fashion that is respectful to God and true to our heritage in the Lutheran Church.
I don’t know if you are talking more about the non-denominational or Assembly of God churches -or if you are trying to lump all denominations into one heading of “religion.” Because that can be a dangerous thing.
I guess you could say that the Lutheran church is the more “heady” church, if you were to walk into the typical Lutheran Service on a Sunday there is no dancing or jumping up and down in the church building – there would be some fine music, some prayers, some preaching, and hopefully some communion.
In your experience have you gone to many different denominational services or have you stuck to one more than another? I think before you generalize religion too much — let some of it go and open yourself to other religious types who are outside of your narrow view.

Joes last blog post..Week 3 Picks

By: Nathan Pralle

Nathan Pralle — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:30:26 +0000

Marie: The prattle makes sense and pretty much aligns with what I was trying to say, I guess.

Ben: Oh, I still feel emotions, don’t get me wrong, but they’re not the uninhibited type that would fully throw myself into a situation like they did in so many religious ones…the emotions there would bypass so much logical constraints that it was sometimes scary. Now the voice of reason always sounds in my head and sometimes I think that dampens my ability to full immerse within a situation — but perhaps that’s a good thing, too. I’m not sure yet.

Nicheplayer: Agreed about resenting religion, and I mostly feel it’s nasty because it limits one’s belief journey in their own lives, and it was never intended to do so. I don’t know about the intellectual emotion, I guess that’s my musing. Sure, natural, scientific things can be *fascinating*, but I’ve not found something that brings me to quite the same sort of scary emotional overwhelming like it did back in ye olde religious days. But then again — as I said above — I think that might be good, because that means I’m not abandoning logic in favor of fanaticism.

By: nicheplayer

nicheplayer — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:04:18 +0000

Is it even more miraculous and wondrous that something like a human being came about without the intervention of a divine being? I mean, maybe it’s an intellectual wonder, as you describe, but why should that create an emotional response diminished in any way compared to a religious wonder? I ended up resenting religion because it was forced on me when I was young. And I saw “religious” people doing things that didn’t gel with what I was learning about in the Bible. I figured I didn’t need a God telling me that something or other was a “sin,” when it was clear to me from my parents’ teachings that some things were just right and others were wrong. I always tear up at the end of “Planes, Trains, and Automobiles;” try watching that if you need a good cry.

nicheplayers last blog post..Moment of cuteness

By: Ben

Ben — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:44:12 +0000

I’m pretty much there with you, except that I do feel emotions still. For me the biggest thing has been the opening of the mind as I throw out the constraints of the mythology that was plied to me throughout my life. Eradicate the dogma and life is much sweeter.

By: Marie

Marie — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:40:43 +0000

What a very interesting blog.

As most people know, I wasn’t raised on any religion at all, so I
found it hard to really include myself in religious activities/families/
relationships because I didn’t and couldn’t force myself to believe in God.
When I did participate I found that the services were VERY
emotional and very moving and when we sang hymns all at once, it was extrememly moving.
That was my favorite part of church. Everyone’s voices all together for one common purpose.
For me personally, as an outsider, I thought it was all about totally giving yourself
over to someone you believe in with all your heart. There was unbreakable, unmistakable
trust and love and that brought everyone together. They all got together and met
and rejoiced in the name of love and salvation, and that was
beautiful.
But I think you can still get together with people you love and STILL feel the beauty in it.
You experience life’s broad emotions but I think the “miracle” and “wonder”
aspect that religion provides is removed. And then you get to logic and coincidence and that
tends to make things a bit less pretty, and I think that’s what you were kind of
describing up there.
It’s really hard to explain but for me I feel that I appreciate the smaller things as
life’s lovely coincidences and credit is not given to God or anyone else. Life simply is,
and I appreciate it. I wasn’t raised to praise God when good things happen. You either chalk it up to coincidence
or your own hand, and for me, it makes life a bit more gratifying that way. But that’s just
me. Obviously, we all experience emotions differently, but I do think people who are
deeply religious are moved by something else that people of no certain religion aren’t.
I don’t think the difference in
the emotional range between the two is very extreme, but they’re felt differently because
you look at the world and it’s events differently. That’s my take on it, anyway.
I sometimes wonder if there really is a God or if there is a “plan” or if things really
do happen for a reason. I think a while back you wrote something about fate or destiny.
It might have been a blog about finding one’s calling. But I tend to kind of think that
those things aren’t connected to God but of something else. I can’t explain it good enough
You can still get together and rejoice in the small and large things. You can sing about
them and feel thankful for each day you’re given. You can still say “bless you” when
someone sneezes. You don’t really NEED God or anything
else to feel jubilant.
Hope this prattle makes some sense. Religion is difficult for me to write about