Danielle: Thank you for commenting, I really appreciate it. I have not read Stobel’s book, although I did some brief research just now on him and his work. I will add it to my reading list as it would be a good discourse in thinking, if nothing else. The usual problem that I have with Christian apologetics like Stobel and others is that they tend to come from a perspective of, “Well, if we can’t prove the Bible ISN’T true, then it must be.” I don’t agree with that perspective, because I don’t think the world naturally lends itself to pointing to God, Christ, etc. (others can and will argue that point, I’m sure) That doesn’t mean it isn’t true, but it does help to figure out where we all come from. And yes, Stobel started as an atheist himself, but I wonder at what point he did the 180 around to viewing it from the other way, because his arguments all sit on the side of the fence where a god is assumed. I guess I will have to read his book to find out if that’s clearly delineated.

First off, I want to express my extreme sympathy for you and your family’s loss with losing your child. We lost twins at 12 weeks gestation and I walked around like a zombie for ages, and that’s NOTHING even close to what you had to go through (I’m not making a comparison). I cannot imagine the pain, and you have every right to feel as such. While you may not use the idea that everything is, “God’s plan”, as a crutch, there are many, many people who do and it is those who I address. For me, it is more comforting to realize that the world simply works in a certain way — some people live, some people die, some have cancer, some don’t, etc. — than it is to try to say it’s part of some “greater plan” when that doesn’t make sense to me in my local viewpoint. Sure, maybe it IS a greater plan, but I don’t see evidence of that, so the logical conclusion for myself is that is how the world works, and I should get over it in that way.

Sometimes that helps, sometimes it doesn’t, like everything else.

I got away from the thinking that bad things happened because God “let” Satan and his minions do so to test faith. That seems like an irresponsible god-figure to me and not something that rationally fits with the all-loving, all-powerful God. So I throw that away in favor of simply believing that the world was made in a certain way and it’s running the way it was meant to run; without this way of running, we would not have the ability to have free will and find ourselves and to become more than our primal natures.

Courtney: I definitely agree with the idea as you hinted that good/evil is not necessarily religion-dependent, nor even god-dependent. I can easily be a great person, I believe, without any of that influence, and I think it behooves believers and non-believers alike to do so; in that way, they are not relying upon the laurels of their faith to make them good, they simply are because — well, you shouldn’t be a dick.

Courtneys last blog post..I Can’t Sleep, So This Is What You Get

Inevitably, I think even the most thoughtful discussions of God can really only involve people laying out their own thoughts and beliefs, maybe asking a follow-up question or two, then going their own separate ways to think about things. Then you’ve had another experience that you can add to the pile of all the other experiences that shape or don’t shape your definition of God.

Thought I should point out that my variable definition of God is really only a metaphor. I probably shouldn’t have used the word “scientific” if I didn’t want it interpreted literally. To elaborate further, I actually think of it in more of an anthropological sense. A culture knows some things and other things are unknown. There are glimpses of the unknown that people then use to create a framework to define the unknown. So on days when I really don’t believe in God, that’s how I see it – sort of like a “Here be dragons” marking over the unknown part of the map. Some people cling to the framework that was commonly accepted 2000 years ago and are unwilling to change their definition of God based on new evidence (see: evolution). Others incorporate new knowledge into their faith, and their understanding of God changes. I’m cool with the latter and vehemently against the former.

Since I don’t know what we’ll find when we strip away the unknown – and perhaps we will find God – it technically makes me an agnostic, I think. Either way, the only way God really affects my life is through other people’s belief in it. Positively in the example charity, good will, and interesting discussions about the nature of God. Negatively in the imposition of faith in law, the decrying that I’m going to hell – not even just because of the life I lead, but because I don’t believe, and in the hateful venom that’s spewed into our society.

The negative is definitely outweighing the positive for me right now.

Sorry about the long comment. Hope you’re having a great Thanksgiving. I’m off to make the cranberry sauce.

Becky Allyns last blog post..Universal Symbols

And to comment on your comment about using “It must be God’s plan” as a crutch. I have felt this way in my life and not seen it as a crutch. When our son died only 11 hours after leaving the womb, it was worse than anything I could ever imagine. The pain and suffering my husband and I have gone through is honestly beyond words. We still feel an incredible, gaping hole in our hearts today, almost 9 months later. I do believe that it was God’s will and plan(whatever you want to call it), but that doesn’t make the pain any less. I don’t use it as a crutch. I accept that He does things for a reason and that I may never understand that reason. At least not this side of Heaven. I don’t think we have the capacity to understand the power and beauty of the Lord…. However, I also believe that God doesn’t go around “doing bad things” like killing babies or starting wars. Bad things happen because of the sinful nature of people. Now this is not saying that because I have sinned, God has punished me by not letting my son live. Not at all. I believe that Satan does all he can to pull believers away from our strength and faith in God. And because I am a believer, Satan will try extra hard to shake that faith I have. Satan doesn’t have to work so hard on those who already believe there is no God.
I don’t know if any of that made sense, but I just wanted to add my 2 cents!
Have a great day!

But first…if you only consider God as a variable in an equation which stands, universally, for ‘unknown’ (or, as Niche said, that which has yet to be discovered), and not as an actual entity, is your using God in this manner simply a confusion to anyone else in discussion? Seems it’d carry too much baggage to make a useful variable. (and maybe you don’t, but I thought I’d say something, as that was my initial reaction)

I mean…that’s why we don’t see equations in algebra like, 2girls = 3guy + 3dick² — it’d make math interesting, and that’s fundamentally against their union, I’m pretty sure.

I think I’m most interested where you say, prior to listing your logical conclusions about God, that these are properties God must have based on your experiences and observations. The things you list are exactly the things I don’t believe about God – creator of the universe, omniscient, omnipotent, consciously making decisions about the universe and beings in it, etc. On the other hand, those “qualities” of God are so embedded in definitions of God I wonder if you reject all those properties if you can be said to believe in God at all? Looks like I’m leaning in the atheist camp.

Do you care to elaborate on the experiences that lead to your conclusions?

Becky Allyns last blog post..Universal Symbols

Thus, my current viewpoint supports the idea that, if you get cancer, that’s just because that’s the way the world works and it has little if anything to do with what God does/doesn’t do. Of course, this removes the crutch that so many lean upon in times of trouble (“It must be God’s plan”), but when has that ever really comforted someone, truly? I think it tends to be more of an escape from the reality of the situation than a help. The fact is, reality is harsh, raw, and nasty. That’s how it is.

nicheplayers last blog post..Happy Birthday, Rachel